You said that the next Themselves record will be coming out on Anticon. Maybe you can say something on Anticon and how easily people enjoy to hate on it.

(Laughing) You know, it's interesting: the blood to that doesn't exist anymore. I wouldn't say that we've experienced much hatred as long as you never log on to the extremely hip hopish websites, you will really not see much of the ra-ra "we don't like Anticon". It's pretty much dissipated. But no one hated us that wasn't a die hard hip hop fan and thought that we were taking something from something they hold in high regard, d'you know what I mean. It only came from the purists in the hip hop realm. And the funny thing is that we were purists once too. You know, that's why we didn't go around like with our middle finger up: "oh, you don't like us: fuck you". Cause it's all love and we totally understand what everybody's problem is with our music.
But the interesting thing is that we have always done the music for the right reasons. We never sacrificed our content. We've always been stylistic with our delivery. We've been maintaining the rules, just not all the rules that everyone wants. But I really think it's subsiding and things are really going well and people are getting into it. And you know, the people that have decided that they hate us, they've given up on burning us down (laughs).
I just did this whole family tree for Anticon, which is really dope. And it pretty much lays it all out. It looks like a tacky ass family tree, with pictures and lines going down the records. But it's really nice: it makes it all concise, and gives it a method.

So where will we see that?

That's going to be inside all the compilation records from now on. We got it all set up, so that we can constantly update it. And it's also going to be on the website. And it's basically a tool.
We go through Nasty Little Man now. They are our publicity pigeon over here and they also do Radiohead and others. We needed a professional way to present ourselves. So I did this tree, and although it's pretty artsy sloppy looking, it really does encapsulate everything and makes it understandable. Because everyone, especially magazines, was getting so fuckin' confused and no one has the time to really give a shit. You know it trickles: It goes uphill well. All the fans really enjoy the music, but the magazine people are like: "what is this shit?" So eventually with this, they'll be able to understand what it is to be given a shit about.

But you can understand not being understood?

Well, yeah. I mean that's what we ask for. Honestly, I hang out with my parents sometimes when I see 'em, and my stepmom will be like "this music is so obtuse. you should say less and repeat it"

Laughing.

And that's interesting enough: that has always been her criticism of the music that we do. But hip hop is all about way too much in one song. So we've been trying to gradually work with that and bring it over towards the light of other music. And sometimes we have songs where we just repeat one line for three minutes. And then I just did a new song for the Boom Bip record on Lex, and it's like an 800 word song in three minutes.

So what's the reason to do something that no one, or only a small number of people will get?

That's the masturbative aspect again. We do it, because we definitely do this for more than a living. People like myself and Sole have spent every penny in our lives doing this music. You know just chasing a dream. Whether it was on a phone bill, or a bus ticket or RCA cables. It's not owed to us, but it's just our right. We try to do music from an inspired space. And sometimes it's just for you, it's a poem about your childhood, or it's only to impress yourself. And then there's something that carries over about it. I always look at it like: the people in Japan can appreciate music that isn't in their language. I feel like people that do understand English, get a similar vibe from the music that is obtuse and only for myself. They sort of feel it and they can emphasize with it, but they might not know what the hell I'm talking about. And it's always like, as we get more mature, as artists, we try and make things less obtuse like that. Cause that's not really what you wanna do all the time. But you do need to. Sometimes it's a relieve.
And we are honest. That's our only clause: that we try to be honest. And I think that that totally comes across. You know why people were at first taken off guard by our music was just because we were saying all these other things in this one format. But at the same time, that's our biggest strength. That's what is interesting about the music, I would say.

What advice could you give the people, how it would be easier for them to understand your music or approach your music?

I think our music is intricately and creatively produced. We are now doing music for people who are looking for that. And it's not really pop music. We are not doing the craft side of music, we are definitely doing the artistic side of music. So sometimes the paintings are way too red, and sometimes there's not enough paint on it at all.
I guess advice, shit... I don't know. Be open minded. It's like, some of the music that we do, like "Circle" is a record that I can't listen to all the time, because it's all over the place. But a record like cLOUDDEAD I listen to more often, because it tends to stay within one type of mellow. So it's all different. But I think the cool thing about our music is, that it's sort of a Wu-Tang Clan for grown ups. And you can get into all of it for what it is, and it has that comic book appeal, because there's so many personalities. And we are all as neurotic as the next. So, it offers a lot.

Where does "Slow Death", my personal favorite, fit in the whole picture?

Oh, I just reissued that actually, with new art, that I made to fit the record a little more. Now "Slow Death", I just had to do that. I never really knew how to work a four track. Like when I was recording on four tracks with J.Rawls and all those guys, I didn't really know what I was doing. And I just had this four track in our house, after we did the first Greenthink record. And I don't know, I just started to sample my dad's records, and it was the first time that I didn't rap some of my writing. It was a big breakthrough for me. That record especially is a little self indulgent, and extremely moody and dark. But, at my best or at my worst, I get a little too heavy. That's like why why? and I work so well together, because he gets a little too light, a little silly sometimes. The two of us together have a really nice equilibrium. "Slow Death" is just that: it's me being extremely melancholic, and sort of going all the way to the left, so that I could get a understanding for where I really was musically. And then right after that I did "Circle" and cLOUDDEAD, where I am rapping and singing and talking. And that has pretty much become my style: that's what I do on these songs. But I don't even wanna put "Slow Death" out there like "Circle" is. That's a different record. It's much more personal. But I still make enough off of that. What is pretty cool.
A little lesser known secret is: I make some money off of these records that do well. Basically all that shit if for free. The only way how I make a living, if I have made anything close to that, is by pressing and selling "Hemispheres" and Greenthink. That's totally the only place where you make money. Even though you only make a thousand copies, you make six times the money that you make getting an advance for a record. So only in this day and age, being this kind of indy artists, where I own my back catalogue, that not everyone wants, but some people want, can I make a living off of it. And then concerts and tours is definitely a way to make money. But it's hard work. Definitely.
But yeah, things are good. It took a long time to be able to make a living off of this shit. That's like what the first half of the new Themselves record is all about: "how the fuck am I getting out of a day job. No one's gonna let me". But I'm gradually figuring it out.

So before we wrap this up, let's talk about some of your landmarks of your discography.

Let's see. You know honestly, even though it's a lot of records, they were all pretty much landmarks. Not to say that they are all the best, but one was definitely the cliff, that I fell off or climbed up to get to the next. I haven't done a record where I haven't learned or unlearned everything from. Because I don't really know what I'm going to sound like in ten years and I'm still always stripping this. Like once I've done "Circle", I was like "oh, now I've done a record like that, I don't have to do that again".
But the biggest ones were.... but you can't even call it that. cLOUDDEAD I would have never thought it would be the biggest landmark of my career. But it has definitely been the skeleton key to a lot of press, and to a lot of markets and audiences that can appreciate all the other music that they still don't know about. "Hemispheres" was a big beginning. And Them. Meeting Jel was just sorta the culmination of me realizing that I wanted to do music for the rest of my life. Because we have always been very much soulmates, just like why?. When I met him, I never realized how much music we were supposed to make and how much change we were supposed to initialize in one another. Same thing with Greenthink. And now I'm out here and feel like a musician for the first time in my life. Now I feel like I'm working on music all year, and some of the year I tour, and I start to feel centered in it. Not so much like I'm out there chasing a mad dog around, you know.

Can you mention again what's coming up from you?

Right now the Subtle EPs are coming out, which is the six piece band with Jel in it. And after that, the new cLOUDDEAD 10"es will be coming out, all summer and winter. But then in August, the new Themselves comes out, which I'm really excited about, cause it's been like almost three years since the first Them came out. I wouldn't have guess it, but it's been a while. So then the cLOUDDEAD album will be out after the Themselves, and that then leaves me with sitting here and working on some solo music. Sort of "Slow Death 2" I suppose. And then I do this touring too, so I will be coming to theaters near everyone.

Aight, I guess I'ma let you go and take a nap, or something.

Naw (smiles), I gonna have to hit the shower and go and spend a hundred dollars at the post office, which is always fun.